Open Water is Scary Enough | Richard Parker and Oba Chandler

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Episode 19

95% of our ocean is unexplored. If that doesn’t make you sh*t your pants a little…I don’t know what will! There are so many “lost at sea” tales out there. But what is it actually like to be lost at sea? How desperate would you actually get?

Well, today we’ve got a special guest, Hillary Burtnett, Kevin’s long time friend from high school. As a member of the US Coast Guard, she’s got the inside scoop on atrocities at sea. Also…cheating husbands with their pants down on a boat? Get it together people! I’m looking at YOU, Florida Man.

Kevin’s starting us off by taking us back in time. In 1884, a small crew set sail out of the same port the Titanic would later leave from (bad juju, amiright?). Little did they know, this trip would turn them into cannibals! But these cannibals might actually be crowned “Cannibals with the Most Integrity,” because they admitted their crimes as soon as they were rescued. Slay, I suppose.

Poor little Richard Parker became food for his sh*tty friends after a series of unfortunate events. This might be the first murder we’ve covered that feels kind of…innocent? I don’t know, you’ll have to tune in and tell us what you would have done in this situation.

But Brandon is taking us to darker waters. Thanks a lot Brandon! Oba Chandler, an average looking Joe who came from a family of dairy farmers, used his boat for evil. Are we surprised that a white man with a boat is an awful human being? No! But we were a bit surprised to find out that he was caught because he was getting a bit too funky with his handwriting.

Moral of the story? Don’t get on a boat with a stranger! And maybe keep your pants on while you’re out there too. The ocean is way too convenient of a spot to dump a dead body. Go to the mountains instead!

If you enjoyed this episode, share the show with your friends. We want to have a kiki and we can’t do that if you keep your joy to yourself! And while you’re at it, leave us a rating and review. We’ll make out with you virtually as a thank you. And lastly, if you have a little Homotown murder you want to share with us, send it over to murder@homocidepodcast.com.

Resources and References

Learn more about Richard Parker:

• Cannibalism at sea: the starving Victorian sailors who ate a cabin boy

Learn more about Oba Chandler:

• From 2011: Oba Chandler leaves behind one last denial before he is executed

• The Life and Crimes of Oba Chandler

• Oba Chandler - The Rogers Family Murders

• Forensic Files (HD) - Season 14, Episode 11 - Water Logged - Full Episode

Transcript

kevin: [00:00:00] Welcome to Homicide, the podcast.

I'm Brandon. And I'm Kevin. And Homicide, the podcast is your favorite gay true crime podcast. That's hosted by us. Two thirsty as gay boys who love a delicious man or woman in uniform. Which we'll tie that in today, right? Anyway, I think there's a purpose for that. Welcome. I'm really excited. Well, first off What's your story about today real quick?

brandon: Um, my story I gave I have a couple titles for it But one of it one of them is Florida's most notorious criminals

kevin: And my story can be described Described can be described as a maritime human chow down Oh, yeah, gross. So, um, we have two people on and you have not heard from our producer Anna in a while, mostly because of our fault.

But Anna is here with us again. So hello, Anna.

anna: Hello. [00:01:00] Nice to be here. So

kevin: excited to have you back on. And then today we have a Very special guest. Her name is Hillary. Hello.

hillary: Hi.

kevin: Talk close to your mic. Thank you so much for

hillary: having me.

kevin: Hillary. I'm so excited to have you on today. And our episode is titled open water.

Is it scary enough? Um, cause we're talking about murders on water.

hillary: Oh, right up my alley.

kevin: I know. So Hillary, I don't know. Tell us and our listeners, who are you? How do we know you?

hillary: All right. So Kevin and I go way back to 2005. Four.

kevin: 2003. Is it

hillary: 2000? No.

kevin: Yeah. 2003,

hillary: no.

kevin: Yes, because I graduated. No, because you

hillary: were a senior.

kevin: Yes. In 2003 was the start of it, and then January was 2004, and then I graduated in May of 2004, so we met in July, August. 2003.

hillary: Okay. Yeah. Anyways, we go way back.

kevin: The details are important on this podcast

hillary: shows our age. We can't remember. So we go way back to a high [00:02:00] school days and um, we have been best friends

since.

kevin: Yeah. It's really interesting. Hillary was probably the first gay person that came out to

Yeah, we kind of came out together,

kevin: um, which is interesting. And then I told Chelsea Turner, um, who lives in San Diego, but, um, yeah, yeah, we met and then we're instantly friends. Um, and we bonded over Britney Spears.

hillary: Oh yeah.

kevin: In the zone album. And toxic. And I had a little Hyundai, um, accent that we would drive around in, but then Hillary had a LeBaron.

Yeah, convertible.

kevin: Convertible , which as a, yeah. Gay people in the early two thousands, uh, was really fun to cruise around in. Do you remember what we used to blast out in there?

Yeah. Evanescence. Yeah. . Yeah. Thank you. Of course. Thank you. How could I forget Evanescence? Ugh. But it was a specific song and a specific version. Yeah. Do you remember what it was?

Um. [00:03:00] Was it broken?

kevin: Oh, that was another one. That was so good. That was with C. C there, yeah. C there, yeah. Um, shit, I don't remember what the song's called.

No,

kevin: it was also the other one though. That was like the whatever. Was it broken? Yeah. Well, fuck. All right. There we go. But

hillary: it was the version with this either.

kevin: Yeah. Yeah.

hillary: The amount of hours we listened to that.

kevin: We killed that shit. Um, the cool thing was, was I met actually met Hillary in high school because my senior year in high school, I went to college part time.

where we had our focus was in forestry. So, but we love trees. I tell people that though. And they're like, what did I tell recently? And I'm like, Oh, I'm certified in chainsaw. And they were like,

hillary: yeah, we drove tractors and cut down trees and

kevin: studied water,

brandon: water core samples from trees. We did. Yeah. I'd say anybody we tell that you've done that or it's like, They don't believe me.

You did? They literally don't believe me. Well, and

hillary: both of our paths went completely not into the forestry realm. I know Mrs. Danahower would be probably disappointed. Heather.

kevin: Hi, Heather.

hillary: Yeah. If she ever [00:04:00] sees this.

kevin: Probably not. But, you

hillary: know, you had an impact and we think about it often. We just didn't go down that road.

kevin: We did. And one thing we talk about often is the fact that you said panties to get our attention in class.

hillary: Yeah, so we say it all the time. And now we say

kevin: panties. Anyway. Yeah, no, Hillary, I love dearly, and it's interesting because we're both from Colorado, but we both ended up living in Florida. Um, I have a weird story, but yours is pretty, also, maybe not weird, but complex, but also interesting.

So why don't you tell us, what happened to you? Where did you go? What do you do now? Are you talking about how I got to

Florida? Yeah.

hillary: Uh,

so

Uh,

hillary: the Coast Guard, [00:05:00] clearly there's not a lot going on for me in Colorado, so I have to go where the water goes. Yeah, but you've

kevin: been, like, a lot of places, right? Like, where have you kind of served or stationed? Yeah,

hillary: uh, I went to Hawaii, and then I was in San Diego, and then I went to Florida, and then I was down in the Keys, which is where we kind of reconnected.

kevin: Yeah, because that's when I came back. Because I went to Orlando for the Disney College Program, but you were in, I think you were in Hawaii then.

hillary: Yeah.

kevin: And this was like 2009, well no, that was when you joined, I think.

hillary: Yeah, I was in Hawaii from 2010 to 2012.

kevin: Okay, and I came here 2009. Yeah. To the Disney College Program, yeah.

So, but then I left. I know. Disney gets ya. Uh, and then I came back, but. And then you met Brandon.

Yeah. Yeah, I did. And I love, and

kevin: then it was meant to be, I know. Interestingly enough, I was, my ex and I actually met at the same, well, I met you first and then I met him later

and he came in late.

kevin: Yeah. And that's the story of life for him, I think.

So, um, with that, uh, Hillary, we're excited to have you here. And, uh, it's fun that you're in the Coast [00:06:00] Guard and we're talking about, Open water. Yeah, we did it

brandon: like a themed episode

kevin: just for you.

I'm honored. I'm so glad to be here.

kevin: I'm glad you're here. And it would be interesting to see how

brandon: you like relate with your experience.

Yes. Uh, I mean,

hillary: I've seen a lot of open water and I can tell you being stuck out there, not any place I'd want to be.

kevin: So.

hillary: I can't wait to hear what you have to say. My story is

kevin: a little bit about that, but before we dive in, Anna, how are you? What's new in your life? What's happening? How's New York? How was the earthquake?

Yeah. Right. The earthquake

anna: was freaky. Um, before I talk about that though, I just want to say this topic is so appropriate for this time. Cause have you been thinking about the eclipse season at all? I've seen multiple videos about how eclipses and like the time in between eclipses has something to do with like catastrophic events in water.

So, I didn't know that. I didn't know that either. Have you heard that? No. Did it really? Um, yeah. And then there's been like [00:07:00] multiple like bridge collapses during this time and multiple earthquakes. Oh. Oh, cool. And then with like

brandon: the just recent bridge collapse. Yeah. God. Yeah. Well, that was

anna: a very appropriate episode.

I feel like, um, but the earthquake was freaky. It really wasn't that dramatic. I kind of felt, I gaslit myself into thinking that it was just me being crazy and having vertigo or something until I saw that it was an actual earthquake. Um, but I heard that people that were on the ground didn't feel it at all.

It was just the people that were like in the buildings. Yeah.

kevin: Yeah. We have our friends that live in Jersey, Clinton, New Jersey. I can't remember what town they live in. Yeah. Um, it's like an hour outside of the city. They, their house, but they were 20 miles from the epicenter. So yeah, it did shake here.

anna: I did feel like my building was about to go down.

And I also live in such an old building that some of the paint is kind of cracking on my wall. And I looked up and saw the paint cracking and I was like, my building is cracking in half right now. Like that

brandon: [00:08:00] is terrifying. Are you on like a

anna: high floor? I'm on the sixth floor, so I'm not that high, but high enough to where if, if anything happened, I'd be dead.

No, but like low enough where you could like

hillary: get out quickly. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Like there's not

kevin: too much above you. I always feel like if a building's collapsing, is it better to be on the bottom or is it better to be on the top? And this is actually something we talked about

brandon: as we walked around the city.

I feel like the

hillary: lower part of the building is like your better bet. Well, your foundation, right? Like you're close to the foundation. Yeah, true. Higher up. You're a little bit more.

kevin: Yeah. But I always feel like if the building is falling down, like if you're on a higher floor, you're like, Oh, Oh, you know, like as it goes down, probably not.

I

hillary: think, I think it would all just happen.

anna: My first thought before any earthquake thought is That building that fell in Miami, like, Oh yeah, that's just out of nowhere. Yeah. That's what I was picturing was about to happen to my building. It was like a pancake. Wasn't it? Didn't it just like,

kevin: yeah, just all the way down.

Yeah. [00:09:00] That was a scary thing, man. Yeah. But there's a building that the side of the facade fell out in like Brooklyn or the Bronx or something. Right. That one was, and that's happened a couple of times. It has. Yeah. These buildings are old. You live in an older building, like brick building. Right.

hillary: Yeah, I do.

Yeah. It's freaky. Honestly, that's probably better than a newer one. I feel like architecturally, you might be safer.

anna: Right. Newer construction is just so cheap and built so quickly that I wouldn't in 20 years, I would not want to live in one of those buildings.

kevin: No. Yeah. Well, that's what we'll be doing too.

Um, actually.

Anyway, um, Brian, how have you been?

brandon: Oh, I've just been fantastic. That's great. I never have anything to say with that. I don't even know. It's like whenever you asked me that question, it's like my brain just goes away. I'm like, I don't even know what happened this week. I don't either. We're very

kevin: busy. We are clearly skipped another episode.

So, um, Hillary, [00:10:00] I don't know. How are you?

hillary: I'm good.

kevin: Yeah,

hillary: we're life is transitioning, but you are in

kevin: a major transition. Yes, but good things are on the horizon. So everybody's good. I love you. And I'm so glad that you're on. Yeah,

I'm so excited to be here.

kevin: Yay. All right. Well, who goes first today? I think you do.

I think I went first last time. Oh my God, I'm first in open water is scary enough, which let's talk about that for just a second. Has anyone ever been lost in open water? Like any of us in the room. Yeah. Again, the room. No, no, no. And

anna: now it makes me think of that tick tock song, the yo. Oh yes. The North sea videos.

It fills me with such dread.

brandon: Like that audio makes my anxiety like sky. No,

kevin: I can't, I can't handle it. Yeah.

brandon: And then I watch every video. Anyways,

anna: I'll always go to the, like, it'll make me so unbelievably uncomfortable. And then I immediately go to the sound and watch every single [00:11:00] indulging in it.

kevin: That's, that's why that app is so great.

Um, in general, that's interesting. Yeah. No water freaks me out. Every time we go on a cruise or something and we're like in the middle of wherever we are on a sea day and there's like, Um, yeah, it kind of terrifies me. Yeah. And the, the water's really dark, like, like it's really dark and it freaks me the fuck out, but I like charisma.

So, well, do I, the ocean's a scary place. Well, tell us about that, Hillary, cause you're in the coast guard. So,

hillary: uh, yeah, so I've, I've seen, Many different bodies of water, like many oceans. I was thinking bodies in water bodies in the water, the sea. I have seen bodies in the water, but, um, the sea is very unforgiving.

So like the weather that is, you know, that's the scariest part. I'm like, you are literally just. on a metal boat that somehow floats. Right.

brandon: And [00:12:00] the

hillary: weather and the sea state can just be insane. And, uh, it's, you just hope that you don't die out there.

kevin: Yeah. That's not a job for me. Did you guys see the movie Poseidon?

We're the big old cruise ship, like capsizes or whatever from a rogue wave. That's

hillary: like a remake of the original, which, yeah, that movie might've sparked some anxiety for sure.

kevin: Like could that happen? Like rogue waves are a thing, right? Yeah.

hillary: They are a thing. Yeah. 100%. They're a thing.

kevin: Like how big can they be?

hillary: Big. Yeah. We had one, uh, we were coming back from, where were we? We were off the coast of like California somewhere. I want to say like San Fran. I don't know. In the middle of the night, just the whole ship was like, I was getting ready for watch, and the boat was just like, boom, and it like shifted like part of our helo hanger.

kevin: The fuck is a halo hanger?

hillary: For size purposes, they call them a cutter. Our cutter was like 378 feet long and it [00:13:00] like cracked like the metal.

brandon: Oh my gosh.

hillary: It was scary. Like everything just went flying and you're supposed to be like secured for C regardless cause you know, things happen. But yeah, we were all like, what the hell?

kevin: Yeah, that would be terrifying.

Yeah. It just

hillary: came out of nowhere.

kevin: No thank you. One

hillary: and done, you know,

brandon: Yeah, yep,

kevin: yep, yep.

brandon: It happens. I love sitting at a desk all day. Oh, I don't. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding.

hillary: You guys still need to come for a boat ride. I

kevin: do want to come for a boat ride. That'd be fun. How far would we go out?

hillary: Not far.

I'll just keep it close. Like, can I see land? Yeah.

kevin: Can I see land? If I can see land then I'm more comfortable even though Because you've been on boats where you have not

brandon: been

kevin: able to see land and you are still around. My favorite time on a cruise though is when you're like right off the shore and like cruising by.

Like it was when we were in Greece and we were like, or maybe it was Greece, I don't remember. But we were like cruising in the Mediterranean and like that was cool. Yeah, it's beautiful. Yeah, it's beautiful. It was very calm. Um, which I liked as well, but it's because it's not like full ocean. No, I do. I was on a [00:14:00] cruise though in 2000, uh, 10.

Yeah, right before I moved to New York City, um, where we got caught in a storm and it was a fucking horrible, like I was wrapped in towels on the deck because it's the only place I couldn't get sick. Um, and I was covered in salt because I was like laying there for like five hours and just salt and the ship I could, as it was, I could see it going like this.

Yeah. Up and down. And I was like, I fucking hate this. All the elevators were closed. There was vomit everywhere. If

hillary: you don't ever go to the Bering Sea, that's the

kevin: straight between. Oh wait.

hillary: Yeah. Go to Alaska.

kevin: Oh,

hillary: that's

kevin: Alaska instead of the,

hillary: just, I mean, go anywhere up there. But like the like YouTube videos of the Bering Sea, it's like,

kevin: which that's the straight between like Antarctica and South Africa, right.

Or some shit. No. That's What is that called? That was inaccurate. Oh, you're talking about, um, it's like a stretch of like really rough seas that every cruise ship has a rough time [00:15:00] getting through, but it's like summer, but I thought it was like South Africa and

brandon: no one. It is. I know exactly what you're talking about, but I don't, I am trying to look it up.

I don't know. But yeah, the Drake passage, that's

kevin: it. Yeah. Thank you. Is that New York or is that Tampa? The alarm. Is that you Anna?

hillary: It's me. Someone

kevin: is dead.

hillary: Emergency. But yeah, look up. We, uh, there's a video of our ship, like I was up on watch for it and somebody took it. And we were in like 30 foot seas and we like just dropped and

kevin: no, no puckered

hillary: puckered for sure.

I was like, we're going to break your butthole. Your butthole, your butthole, everybody, everybody, you just like watch it. And you're like, no,

kevin: that's, you know, those, those, these are also on Tik TOK, those videos of like people in big ships, like cargo ships that are like hanging onto something and all of a sudden their body is like, yeah.[00:16:00]

hillary: Yeah, we've had like people like from like the floor to the ceiling like be able to jump because it's just an anti gravity chamber up forward.

kevin: I would be puking the entire time. It's scary. You get

hillary: used to it though. Do you though? You do , do you? You do.

kevin: I don't know. You do. I like the first day of any cruise ship.

I'm always sick. Yeah, but you wouldn't time but Kevin,

brandon: you wouldn't be the first one to be like, yes, I wanna put myself in that position. No, I would say you'd be like, no, I'm not gonna

kevin: do it. It's like when we go to an amusement park and I'm like, I'll hold our bag. I'm going to get you

hillary: those glasses. They make those like seasickness glasses.

kevin: Yeah.

hillary: They have like this fluid in the bottom so that your eye can focus. So it's like, you're looking at the horizon.

kevin: They

hillary: look like, um, you know, those like straw glasses that you had when you're like a little kid, you know what I'm talking about? Well, they look like that. They look absolutely ridiculous.

But if they help, then

kevin: no, if it, listen, I get the bracelet shit. I'm taking a patch. I do not take Ritalin. I did take it when I was little, but I don't think I guess

hillary: if I got really [00:17:00] seasick, I'd rather look nerdy than be vomiting everywhere. I would, I would completely agree with that. Yeah, no,

kevin: not, not my thing.

And here's another long winded intro, but that's okay. So Yeah, let's uh, all right. We're ready to dive into yeah, I'm excited to hear yours. Are

hillary: you

kevin: ready diving dive into the water? I'm ready. I got my water wings on, you know, we're diving in officially. I can't wait headfirst or maybe not headfirst for some Cannonball what

brandon: I just assumed that was like a tell into your story.

kevin: Oh Sometimes Brandon does some shit and I'm like, what? What's wrong? And he's like,

brandon: I assume you know everything that's going on inside of my mind.

kevin: I don't. You don't,

brandon: but I just assume you do. We are best friends. You're welcome. Um, I don't know.

kevin: Most of the time you understand what I'm thinking. I do, like this morning, whatever we did, we did at the same time.

And I can remember, I was brushing my teeth and you did it. And I was like, shut up, I just did that too. What were we saying? Are we singing? We're weird.

brandon: We are weirdos alone. [00:18:00] Alright, anyway. Whatever. Let's dive in. I think people are starting to see we're weirdos on this as well. I know. Alright.

It's charming.

kevin: So my title is Richard's Mates Were Shite. So it was May 19th of 1884 when four men hopped into a small yacht to set sail from Southampton, England. which also happens to be the same day. Uh, port that Titanic actually would sail out of on its maiden voyage in Southampton. That's bad juju already. I know, I know.

I'm excited that this is an old one, we haven't done an old one in 1884, yeah. So the foreman were taking the yacht, named the Mignonette. I'm probably saying that right. M I G N O N E T T E Uh to its new owner that was in Australia. So the captain was Tom Dudley He was 31 years old and he was a proven yachtsman Also in tow were Ned Brooks and Edwin Stevens who also happened to be seasoned sailors Uh rounding out the crew was its fourth member cabin boy Richard Parker, which

hillary: He was their peasant [00:19:00] that scene.

That's, he's like their bitch. That's what I thought. That's what it sounds like too. I'll

kevin: just wait. Um, this was actually Richard's very first voyage on the open sea, but um, even though it was his first voyage, his family were actually sea seafaring. I've never heard of seafaring, was faring seafaring.

Thank so much. That's what I'm here for. Not cing, seafaring. Earlier I was like, C, fearing, what is that? And I'm like, that's not spelled as C fearing. C. C. What?

hillary: Faring. Faring. Faring.

kevin: I'm not going to get it. Sea Faring, family. Um, and he sailed extensively in, in shore waters. I don't know what in shore waters means.

Close to land. Oh, okay. Yeah.

hillary: So he's not, he's not a big, big ocean open water guy. Big open water

kevin: guy. The water by the shore. So he's me. Anyway, the crew, uh, prepped the yacht. They set sail, uh, for their long journey to Australia, which is quite long, in general. But, uh, things didn't go as planned. And, uh, what happened on their journey would send the crew scrambling to survive and would ultimately lead to murder.

How big is this [00:20:00] boat?

kevin: Not that big.

hillary: I

kevin: mean, their crew is like, what, four or five? Only four people, yeah. Yeah, so. It's a smaller, smaller yacht. It's a

brandon: yacht in the 1800s. How,

kevin: like, how big

brandon: were they? How big and how, like, great they were? Probably not very big. It was

kevin: big enough to have a dinghy, but I think you pull a dinghy behind you, right?

I

mean, dinghy, dinghy, dinghy. Very in size, . Oh, okay. You know,

kevin: I don't know how big is your dinghy? Um, you would know big enough. No, I don't. Uh, so do, does everyone know what a dinghy is? Because I didn't. Totally, yeah. Yeah. I mean, you do. Yeah. But a dinghy is a, is like a little life. boat. Yeah. Yeah. So at this time, probably just say a puddle, puddle boat, paddum.

Yeah. Puddle boat. Oh, it sounds like you were saying puddle. What's a puddle boat? It's a portable, but anyway, so this is actually the story of the ill faded yacht, the Mignonette whose crew would sacrifice a member in order to survive and would leave a lasting legal and cultural legacy, a legacy that actually [00:21:00] extends to today.

So, it's worth saying that I pulled the story from History Extra, which is an official website for BBC History Magazine. So, like, everything I pulled was from that, so No plagiarization, because I just cited you. Thank you. Um, so anyway, here's some overall kind of interesting stuff. So, it was the spring of 1884 when an Australian gentleman um, visiting England to purchase the, the, the yacht, uh, which he wanted delivered to his home in Australia.

So he found Tom Dudley, who was a 31 year old, who appeared capable of undertaking the task, and he in turn recruited three other men to help him, which ended up being, um, Stevens, Brooks, and then, and Parker. Um, so the other three. So they set sail from Southampton, like I said, on May 19th, um, and set a southerly course to round the Cape of Good Hope, Making a couple of stops and route to rest and restock their supply.

So it sounds like a trip I would not take. Yeah, I know. The

hillary: weird thing about adventures on in the sea back in the day is [00:22:00] like, they kind of were just like, are you able bodied? All right, let's go. Yeah. You want to make a couple Schmeckles or whatever, you know,

kevin: on a ship for three months or four months or whatever.

hillary: Yeah.

kevin: Like what? Yeah. And also

hillary: what, like how long was their transit?

kevin: They, I only got to wear that. Stopped.

hillary: Oh,

well, how far was that?

kevin: I think it's about four months though. I think it's like a three to four months trip, I think.

Ew. Too long.

kevin: I could be wrong. If you're a listener and have that information, please provide.

Yeah, let

us know. Yeah.

kevin: How long did it take to get well, how long would it it In the 1800? 1800. Late 18 hundreds. Late 18 hundreds. Well, 84. Yeah. No, it's late . Yeah. Anyway, I was born just. later. So the coincidence almost my birthday

hillary: and your

kevin: birthday. Crazy. Hillary and I do share the same. We do share the

hillary: same birthday.

May

kevin: 21st, just a year [00:23:00] apart. Oh, wow. Best friends. We're

hillary: twins.

kevin: We are. We even got the same tattoo at one point. We did. Look

hillary: at my scar. Oh, I can see the scar.

kevin: Hillary had hers removed, whereas mine is still in the back. And I only

hillary: had it removed because I couldn't get into the Coast Guard with a neck tattoo.

kevin: That's right. And mine. Oh, so I forget it's there because I can't see it . So, but everyone else can, and they're always like, what is that? What is, what is that? In

hillary: bootcamp, they were like, were you in a gang? And I was like, I was not in a gang. It kind of looks like, well, it's just scarred up. So it was like still healing.

I went something. So they were like, were you in a gang? Like yelling at me? And I was like, doing pushups. I like, no, no, I was not in a gang.

brandon: We'll have to post a picture of it on

kevin: Instagram. Yeah, I'll post a picture of it on Instagram, but what is it? But basically it's the, the number 21. With the Gemini symbol like intertwined with it.

I think that the artist drew it that day. Yeah, he did. Yeah. And we were like, just do that. And we got it. Um, and it is still on my neck looking gross because it's been there for quite some time, a long time, like 20 years. Yeah. Or more. Great. Yeah. [00:24:00] Anyway, so, uh, all right, let's talk about the incident. So on July 3rd or July 5th of 1884, not sure which one because it was listed multiple ways.

Um, they were about 1500 miles off of the coast of Africa after leaving Madeira on their way to Cape Town. So during this time they encountered really strong winds and high seas, kind of like this, uh, that we were talking about, well, one hit them and it's overpowered. The boat sank it. Um, so in that kind of moment where they were trying to like get the dinghy and all this shit, um, they weren't able to get much in general.

Um, and the one thing that they really wanted to get that they did not get was water. So, Oh, well that's not a great thing. Yeah. Although they're surrounded by water, not the water they should be drinking.

hillary: Also kind of curious what their emergency water supply looks like back in the 1800s. I think, was it a barrel was like, yeah, nowadays we have like weird kits.

It's like in these like foil packets. Oh, interesting. Well you also have like a

kevin: filter or shit, right? Which you can drink the [00:25:00] ocean water if you,

hillary: yeah, we don't have those, but I'm sure they exist. I'm sure that's a

kevin: thing. But we got one for our gym.

hillary: Somebody grabbed the, uh, grab the barrel of water.

kevin: It's going down.

Um, so anyway, they found themselves obviously in a very desperate situation. Um, as they became adrift in the South Atlantic, hundreds of miles from land, the only really thing that they were able to get was two, one pound tens of turnips. Oh yeah. Okay. I'd rather go hungry. I know. Gross. So gross. So over the next 12 days, they rationed out the turnips with Tom using his pen knife, which I don't even know what a pen knife is.

Um, to divide tiny portions of the rationed turnips or the turnips that they rationed.

hillary: Also, how long does a turnip last? Right. You know, like how can you have a turnip before they turn? Yeah,

kevin: like those turnips will only last four days. I don't know. That's, yeah, great question. Hmm. I guess they could have put them in salt water and You know?

Yeah,

brandon: but like just the thought of eating like

hillary: Some

brandon: milky ass turnip. Yeah. [00:26:00] Uh

hillary: They were probably already like weeks old already because they're long transit. Hard pass on the turnip.

kevin: That's what they had. So they were, I mean, listen, the amount of weight that they probably lost during that time. I could use a turnip tie.

Yeah, who needs

hillary: those, Empik? Right?

kevin: Just get lost at sea with turnips. Yeah, that's right. So eventually they caught a poor turtle that swam by and obviously ate the shit out of that turtle. Eating all the meat. I'm sure that helped them stay alive quite a bit longer. Yes, but I'm pretty sure that you can't do that these days.

Like you need to leave the turtles alone. You

anna: Also, like, how did you cook the turtle? Did you eat it raw?

kevin: Probably raw. I asked Hillary that earlier. Turtle

anna: tartare. Turtle

brandon: tartare. Just let it like, yeah, leave it out in the sun

kevin: for a little bit. And you know the turtle was probably like, what the fuck? Right?

Because all of a sudden it's just lifted out of water. I don't know.

hillary: And like, how big was the turtle? Like, I don't think there's a lot of meat on turtles to begin with. I don't either. I don't know.

kevin: I've never [00:27:00] eaten one though. But

I guess

hillary: if you're

starving.

kevin: Yeah.

brandon: I mean, you gotta do what you gotta do. And I'm assuming they did a lot of things.

So they ate

kevin: the little turtle. Then they would catch raindrops whenever a rainstorm would come. But eventually they resorted to drinking their own pee.

hillary: That's going to be a no from me. Yeah.

kevin: Which we talked about pee last time. I'm not into it. So I would not be drinking my own pee. Yeah. Yeah. But if you can't drink anything else.

Wait, which movie? Have you guys

anna: seen that movie? 27 Hours, I think is what it's called. Oh, with his arm? Yeah, he like gets stuck under a big boulder, his arm, and then he starts like drinking his own pee. And that's how he survives.

hillary: Yeah. There's like mixed reviews on drinking urine. We looked it up earlier.

It's like, some are like, yeah, like some people love it. Yeah. There's probably a whole group of people that enjoy it just for funsies, even though they have access to fresh filtered water. Yeah.

kevin: I've definitely seen some pornos with like, oh, that and I'm like why that's yeah hard pass. Yeah. No, no, thanks No, but like if you

brandon: [00:28:00] with what if you're like, okay, there's a salt water, which will only dehydrate me even more or my urine My throat is on a fire cause I'm not, I don't have anything to drink.

kevin: Or my urine. Yeah.

hillary: But also like dehydrated people's urine. That's gotta be the most. It's like the

kevin: stinky urine. It's like if you have asparagus and you're like, wow, I had asparagus, but it's like so dark and like, Oh my God.

And brother. Ew.

kevin: Ew. Okay, so they could only do that for,

brandon: this is why we don't go on boat.

Yeah. No .

kevin: They could only do that for a little bit of time. So by July 17th, all supplies on board, the little dinghy had been exhausted. So, um, about this time is when Tom, uh, started thinking of the topic, uh, that's called custom of the c. Which, uh, was something in the 1800s, um, that basically was the practice of drawing lots, uh, to select a sacrificial victim that could be consumed by his crewmates so that everyone could survive.

Um, which is really interesting. So basically they would be like, Alright, like, in order for us to survive, we're gonna, [00:29:00] like, draw straws. Um, and whoever has the shortest, um, gets killed and eaten. Oh. So cool. Well, that sucks. I know. So three days after he started thinking of that, so many questions, little Richard Parker who was 17 just couldn't take it anymore.

And he ended up gulping down seawater and then attempt to quench his thirst, which just makes me break. Mike makes me break, breaks my heart, but he ended up drinking way too much. Um, and so became violently ill, collapsing at the bottom of the boat with, um, extreme diarrhea. Oh no.

Yeah.

kevin: Which let's talk about that for a second.

If somebody has extreme diarrhea, like at least bend over the boat. Right. But

brandon: also it's still the 1800. So you're in the You're just shitting in a bucket, I'm sure. Oh, it must have been so stinky.

hillary: I bet they didn't have a bucket.

brandon: Probably

kevin: not. He just was like boat. He just shot on the ground boat. Of course.

And then you

hillary: add already like severe dehydration into that Uhhuh like he had done. Poor

kevin: cabin boys. No, he's out and like [00:30:00] were his other like I just like, were the other crew members like, no, don't do that. I'm sure they were just like, I'm fucking hungry. . Yeah, maybe they were like, go ahead and drink that water.

hillary: Yeah, this problem's about to solve itself. You know what I mean? We're not going to have to do a lottery for any of it. I'm just in the

kevin: corner like, thank you Richard. He just

hillary: sacrificed himself. I

kevin: know. So over the next coming days, um, obviously Richard's condition deteriorated and Tom began to think about the concept of custom Etsy again.

Mm.

kevin: Where he was like, mm, draw, you know, draw straws. It feels very pirate y. I know. Except for, they didn't draw straws. So on July 25th, after almost three weeks of drift, which is crazy, Tom actually insisted to Edwin that they sacrifice Richard because he was dying anyway. And they actually had wives and children and he didn't really have anyone.

So, um, he also insisted that human flesh has been eaten before in the past. So it wouldn't be a big deal. But Edwin was like, absolutely not. Um, until Daybreak came and Richard was [00:31:00] looking, you know, bleak. Um, Edwin was like, okay. Maybe we can do that. So that next morning, instead of like what?

brandon: I mean, he sounded like he was bad enough where he might have died just from natural causes.

kevin: Sure. Yeah.

brandon: Which they

kevin: could have

brandon: just waited and ate dead. But I don't

kevin: know. So anyway, the next morning when Edwin was like, Oh yeah, maybe, um, instead of doing the custom, right, the custom of the sea and drying lots, Um, Tom told Edwin to hold Richard's legs, um, if he were to begin to struggle and then knelt down beside Richard and thrust his penknife into his jugular.

That was quick.

kevin: And here's where things get a little, well, it's all twisty right now, but here's where things, I was like, eww. Now it gets real. Um, so according to their own accounts, because they were very forthcoming, um, they, uh, Um, used a chromometer case, which I don't know what that is either. Um, but use that to catch the oozing blood, which they then passed around to moisten their parched mouths.

It's [00:32:00] like wine.

anna: Oh God. It's

kevin: called a chromometer case, but they basically,

hillary: it does.

kevin: But also if you go to the jugular, it doesn't, that should just shoot out.

hillary: I mean, you're going to bleed out and like minutes. Yeah.

kevin: So they caught all the blood and then they just passed it around to, um, moisten their parched mouths, which is gross.

So they just started drinking his blood.

hillary: That makes me feel kind of sick. Yep.

kevin: They then stripped him. Yeah. And cut his body up, but not. In a way that you think so they first just dove into eating his heart and his liver. Oh, I'm, not sure why but i'm sure that it has it's high in Something that they may need iron maybe I don't know.

Well, right that would make sense

brandon: You I mean it sounds like they opened him and they were like, let's just dig in.

kevin: They're like yum So the after they did that they were feeling a little bit satisfied. They then cut strips from him of flesh from his limbs You [00:33:00] And then set that aside for future rations.

And then whatever was left of Richard was pushed overboard.

Wow.

kevin: Yeah. And so they ate the remains for several days. But the flesh obviously began to rot out in the extreme heat and sun and all that. So on July 29th, after 24 days of drift. Now, remember, they decided to kill him, excuse me, on July 25th. July 29th, 24 after 24 days of drift.

A ship was sighted on the horizon. And that ship was called the Mach, uh, Mach des Zuma. A German vessel that was bound for Hamburg, um, had spotted them and came to its aid. So, um, they were all cared for and a month later they arrived back in Falmouth, England. What's interesting though is that there's conflicting information that says that they pushed his body overboard, but then like later in the trial they like fought for them to bring his body back or something.

I don't know, it's weird.

Hmm.

kevin: So. That was the situation. So, let's talk about the arrest and the trial. [00:34:00] So, from the moment that they were rescued, Tom actually made no attempt to hide or gloss over the fate of Richard, like at all. Um, he was really forthright, he was honest, and so, um, in his mind, he thought killing and consuming Richard was a tragic necessity.

Um, and that, uh, they took the drastic measures. Is that little Finnegan? No. Oh. He's a screaming child. We can never escape him. They're everywhere. I know. So the authorities in Britain, uh, viewed these matters differently. And so, oh no, that's Finnegan.

Oh, little

kevin: nugget. Um, so anyway, public, um, opinion in Falmouth was actually pretty sympathetic to the crew's actions.

However, the local shipping master was required by law to notify. the board of trade, um, of this violent death on a British ship. So, um, he sent a telegram to London and then they of course arrested the three surviving men. The crew was pretty amazed at the turn of events because they were like, what? Um, so then this actually got them caught up in this [00:35:00] legal process.

Um, and basically the, the ruling of, um, the process not being followed of custom of the sea. So, what's interesting is that ten years previous, uh, to this, there had been, um, uh, another, like, cannibalize, can, cannibalized, whatever, wreck of the Exune. Um, and that date, the legal establishment had sought to prosecute the perpetrators, but, uh, it collapsed in general.

So, they actually saw this as another opportunity to go after. Um, this kind of like custom, um, of the sea idea. So, the crew, um, appeared before the magistrates. And so Ned was exonerated actually, um, because he played little to no active part in the killing, um, and did not like consume much. But Tom and Edwin, um, were arraigned for murder.

So, uh, what's interesting is that outside of the courtroom, Richard's older brother, who was also a sailor, actually, like, shook their [00:36:00] hands and, like, gave them, like, the, to be, like, like, we understand that you had to do this to our, to our brother and our son or whatever, um, which is really interesting. So, the trial actually began in early November of 1884.

And it was apparent that the outcome was largely actually predetermined. So addressing both a jury and a packed chamber, Judge Baron Huddleston, uh, very British name, um, opened the trial with a detailed explanation as to why the law could not recognize, um, the necessity, um, as justification for killing.

So they were saying that we had to kill him because we, like, it was necessary for our survival or whatever. So the defense's case was like then invalidated in general. So this kind of was like set up for them to fail. So, they basically were like, they described their desperation of like having to fight for survival, or whatever.

His account, Tom's account of what happened, um, aboard the ship appeared to have fallen short of the requirements. Um, instead of engaging in a random selection process, [00:37:00] he and Edwin focused solely upon the boy. Um, and it seems that they kind of waited for him to get sick, and then like killed him. And so, the decision was made, um, Uh, to like, to take his life, obviously.

So, the interesting thing is, um, this is what I, they, so when they were picked up, they insisted that the body be taken back to have like a Christian burial, and, uh, burial, burial, um, in Britain, but, a burl, but, uh, again, that was conflicting information because it said that they, like, threw his body overboard or whatever, so.

Um, the verdict, so despite the, the, The steering of the judge, the jury was actually reluctant to pronounce Tom and Edwin guilty. What's interesting about the time there is that murder at that time was like, you were executed automatically. In general, if you were guilty of murder. So, um, In another pre planned gambit, the judge offered the jury the option of returning a special verdict, an unusual judicial procedure which referred the case to a higher court.

[00:38:00] Um, so Tom and Edwin were ultimately convicted of murder, but not by the jury of their peers, but by, instead, the panel of five judges. So, the verdict required the senior judge to sentence them to death, but it was assumed that the press It was assumed in the press that a pardon would quickly follow, but, um, it didn't.

And, uh, so two convicted murderers, um, they, uh, could not walk completely free of punishment, um, whatever the circumstances, but in the end, the secretary settled on a sentence of six months. Imprisonment and that's it. And so both Tom and Edwin were, um, dispatched to Holloway Prison to serve out the term.

So what's interesting is that there's a professor and a historian of law, Brian Simpson, that, um, de described that trial as procedurally a complete mess. But what's interesting is that it gave, and this is why it kinda like ties, ties back to like law and like current day shit. So, it gave a definitive ruling on the custom of the sea and Regina versus Dudley and Stevens, which were Tom and Edwin, [00:39:00] remains to this day the case used to introduce students of common law to the complexities involved in pleading necessity as a defense to murder.

It's like the idea of, like, doing, like, murdering somebody and saying, I had to, like, it was a necessity, I had to. Um, in the sense of, like, like, Having to eat them or whatever. I

mean,

kevin: that's,

yeah.

kevin: So in this way, the crew, um, achieved a degree of immortality because they're still used in law books today to like, to talk about this necessity thing.

So, um, what's interesting, and I did not know this away from law courses in school rooms, the greatest victim in the whole story. Was, uh, achieved, um, or I'm not even reading that right. Anyway, Richard Parker lives on. So, what's interesting is that in Jan Martel's best selling novel, Life of Pi, Um, Ang Lee, I, uh, you guys, Life of Pi, the movie that came out.

Um, so, what's interesting is that that's the story of Richard Parker, but instead of his fate being like [00:40:00] this crew, it turned into like this tiger. Um, yeah. So, yeah. So instead of him being killed and eaten by his companions, instead a full grown Bengal tiger was replaced as that crew. Which is interesting.

Um, and so, here's, uh, also an interesting note, and I don't know if you've heard of this, probably not, but it says, um, that seafarers, sorry, um, called Richard Parker, uh, seem to suffer from a curse, so it seems inadvisable for anyone called Richard Parker to go to sea, as commentators at a time notice that the victim shares the same name With an ill fated character in Edgar Allan Poe's masterpiece of maritime horror, The Narrative of Arthur Gordon Penn, which was like in 1837.

So Poe's character, Parker, leads a mutiny on board the Grampus. When the ship is wrecked, he finds himself adrift with the novel's um, hero and two other characters. Just like the crew, the survivors are wrecked with hunger and reduced to following the custom of the sea. Unlike real life here, Um, it is [00:41:00] Richard Parker who proposes that lots be drawn, but in an eerie anticipation of actual events It is then Parker who draws the short straw and ends up being eaten by his companions And then 40 years before Poe's novel another sailor called Richard Parker also met a violent end one of the ringleaders of the naval mutiny At the Noor in 1797 this Parker was subsequently hanged from the yardum Yardum

hillary: yard arm

kevin: yard arm of the HMS sandwich Poe named his, um, mutineer after this historical figure.

Well, author Jan Martel's Richard Parker in the life of PI arguably channels all three precursors,

my God, to vote both the spectacle of cannibalism and the, um, mutinous impulses in the body, which drive us to such repulsive acts.

hillary: So, I mean, what are your thoughts on it? Like murder, not murder.

brandon: It's hard to because chances are he could have lived if he was still alive and they saw the boat. Yeah. Right?

[00:42:00] Yeah. .

kevin: Yeah. I mean, it was like not that many more days later. No, they could have done, but they didn't know that. No, they didn't. They didn't know that.

hillary: Yeah. True.

kevin: Yeah. I don't know. And

hillary: also they could have just said he already died. They could have 100%, but they told the truth. I mean, I appreciate their integrity.

Me too. . You know, me too.

kevin: Yeah. They were god-fearing men.

But, uh,

brandon: so

yeah, I don't,

brandon: yeah, that's an interesting one. I know, because it's not like our typical ones where it's no like. Just maliciously, like, doing it. And attacked them. This is a, we were trying

kevin: to survive. Yeah, like, it's not like it was premeditated.

Like, there's just nothing. It was just kind of like a, shit, we gotta survive. It's kind of like the story of that plane that crashed in the, in the Andes, I think. Yeah. Yeah, I was just about to say that. Yeah, where they ended up eating, they didn't kill anybody, but they definitely ate the dead bodies that were frozen.

hillary: Yeah. I mean, if somebody's already dead, and it, I might, you know, I might do it.

kevin: I

hillary: might do it. I don't know if I'm eating it raw, like on a boat.

brandon: Like can we get a grill over here? I think there's a lot of [00:43:00] factors that go into making that decision.

kevin: I would agree with that. Oh my god, so that's uh, Richard's mates were shite.

They were shite. But they also had to deal with his shite. Oh true, cause he did diarrhea. Cause he did diarrhea all over the place. Poor Richard.

hillary: Low man on the totem pole. Yeah,

kevin: and he was probably like, help me friends, and then they just stab him in the neck. Yeah, right. Fuck, dude.

hillary: And he only went probably because he was super poor.

kevin: Yeah. And needed money. And it was his first time on the

hillary: Yeah.

kevin: Yeah. Nope. No, thanks. So it was an interesting one. Yeah, that's that one. All right, Brandon, you ready? I'm ready.

hillary: Yeah, Bea, what's yours?

kevin: All right. All right, Brandilinus.

hillary: All right. I laugh every time you say that. I don't know why I call him that.

It's so stupid. It's so cute. I love

kevin: it. I don't even remember why you started saying that. No, I call him Brandilinus, Brandilini. What else do I call you? Oh, that's maybe true. I [00:44:00] love it. All right. Well, what's your, what's yours again? What's the second title? The second

brandon: title I have was never trust a stranger, which I think is just a good motto to have.

Yeah. Like people should earn your trust. Right. Yeah. Right. So I don't trust anybody. I mean,

kevin: no,

brandon: no.

kevin: Yeah. Nope. No. Yeah. Nope. Which I think has come because we did trust people. Yeah. Yeah. I think as you get older, you get you, man, that wisdom starts to come because of experience. If you get sick. Nah. Yeah. I'm not a good person to buy either.

Cause I am not nice.

hillary: No, you're not. I mean, you are, but not when you've been partying.

kevin: No, and I try, listen, I give a lot, and a lot, and a lot, but if you fuck with me too much, no. I'm not very nice about it. No, you're not. Or if you fuck with other people. Alright. On

brandon: that note,

kevin: Brandon.

brandon: So this is a story that is, I've heard it before, so it wasn't new to me, but I forgot about it.

So I'm interested to see if you're going to remember this one. Cause we watched a show about it once, but [00:45:00] Oh, okay. Yeah. So on June 1st, 1989, Joan Rogers and her two, two daughters, Michelle and Christy were on vacation in Florida from a small rural town in Ohio. Yep. This was a dateline or something. It was, I can already tell.

Yeah. They were a family of dairy farmers. Um, so they were. That sentence just sounds so strange. Anyways, uh, are we back in 1884? They were 1989. I know, but there were dairy farmers, dairy farmers, family. Yeah. Seafaring

hillary: dairy farmers. Yeah. I like this. I like where it's going already.

brandon: So the family was on vacation, um, except for Jones has been held.

He decided to stay back. Um, because being that they had a farm,

kevin: it's church time. It is church time. Let's have a moment. Do we need to have a moment? Everyone, just a second of silence for Jesus. Done. Done. Just one quick second.

anna: Luckily it's one, so it'll just be. [00:46:00]

kevin: I love it. I love it. This makes me miss New York.

anna: I

brandon: know it does. Um, so Hal decided to stay back because as a dairy farmer, you worked a lot. 24 seven every single day of the year. Yeah,

hillary: no days off on the farm. No, no,

brandon: is

kevin: it done?

anna: Yeah, because it's one so only

kevin: one Man, thank

brandon: god. It's not

anna: 12

brandon: All right, keep going So just days prior as they packed up their car and made the trek down to florida making stops in various towns along the way And on june 1st, they left orlando to their next destination, which is tampa florida Of course, which I didn't remember that being here, which I thought was interesting

kevin: back in tampon, Florida We're back in tampon

hillary: tampons.

You guys have so many tampons in this office.

kevin: We do. Yeah Yeah, something that we do at our agency is we we buy all it's amazing that you do it There might be more tampons

hillary: here than there are my actual. Yeah, we actually

kevin: do each team members preferred Um, product so they can just tell us what they want.

Wow. That is

hillary: [00:47:00] called good management . That's good bosses. Yeah. Wow. Should

kevin: be, they shouldn't have to, it's called Working for a millennial. Yeah. .

hillary: I love that.

kevin: No, it's pretty great. Yeah. But yeah, that's why it's in . The bathroom. Yeah. All right. So they're in Tampa. They're in Tampa. So where we have loads of tampons.

brandon: Yeah. In our bathroom. You can get a tampon in Tampa. . Um, the girls were, um. Um, excited, uh, because after a quick check in at their motel, they were going to be headed right to Busch Gardens for a fun day, um, at the amusement park. So, however, uh, Joan eventually got lost on their way to find the motel. Um, so pulling over to check, uh, her map, she was a little surprised to see a man approach her car cause she stopped at a gas station.

Um, the man asked if, uh, they were lost to noticing that, uh, they had an Ohio license plate. So, um, he decided to help the ladies, um, and the man wrote down directions on, um, to their motel on a brochure, uh, for clear water before he, um, invited them on a sunset cruise on his boat. No. No, ma'am. Yeah. [00:48:00] No. You do not get on boats with strangers.

You do not trust a stranger. No. So being that the ladies were on vacation, they thought why not and they decided to accept his offer pretty excitedly Yeah, these are the moments where you decide not to

hillary: yeah, exactly Yeah, like exactly or that's the moment that you go back to when you're about you're in danger and you're like why the fuck did?

I do that

brandon: stranger danger So that evening the ladies made their way to the boat launch that he told them to meet them at And what the ladies didn't know, that this would be the last time that they'd ever step on solid ground together.

Oh my god, that's horrible. That's devastating when you think about it, when you say it like that.

It is. I know, right? Ugh.

brandon: Yeah. So, I decided for this one to just jump right into who the man was instead of extending the story. What was his name again? Well, that's what I was about to get into. So, who was this man, you might ask? Whose mans is I literally have it in my head, so who was this man? Literally says, who was this man?

But I don't even have [00:49:00] his full name in here. Anyways. So born on October 11th, 1946. Um, Oba Chandler was the fourth child of Oba Chandler Sr. and Margaret Johnson, um, in Cincinnati, Ohio. Never trust an Oba. Nope. So named after his father, Oba was only 10 years old when his dad died by suicide, um, in 1957, hanging himself in the basement of their home.

The family of Oba senior, uh, blamed it on Mark grip because of course it would be the, the wife. What

didn't

brandon: he choose to do that? Yeah. Well, he hung himself, but the family decided to blame it on the, on, uh, Margaret saying that she killed him. Um, and Margaret ended up blaming it on Oba June, uh, Oba senior.

I'm sorry. There's too many. I know. Yes, thank you. Hillary got it right. She knew what I was talking about. Hillary knows. So, Margaret blamed it on Oba Jr., uh, for his behavioral issues, uh, because during his childhood, it was known that Oba [00:50:00] was not the easiest child. Uh, many often acted out at school. So, after his father died, Oba's destructive nature only got worse.

Um, starting with his first arrest at 14 for stealing a car. Um, by the, by the time he was 18, he was arrested around 20 times for various reasons like stealing, which included multiple cars, uh, the possession of counterfeit money, um, and even arrested for masturbating while peering into a woman's window.

Um, yeah. So he was, he was, he was a great dude. Um, he had some issues, clearly. Yeah. However, it wasn't the end of it. As he got older, his crime started to expand into more serious crimes like burglary, um, armed robbery and multiple sexual assaults. Um, and then I did see at one point, um, he and his, he and a friend, um, uh, broke into a couple's home and robbed them at gunpoint, which progressed to him telling his friend to tie up the man with wires from a speaker in the room.

And then Oba, uh, took the woman into, uh, her [00:51:00] bedroom where he made her strip her clothes. while he tied her up and rubbed a revolver across her stomach.

Wow. Right.

brandon: They both survived though. Um, nobody was killed, and that was the extent of what I've read from that. Can you just say what you wrote right there?

Oh, yeah. I wrote fucking creep ,

hillary: sometimes fucking

brandon: creep. Actual, like I know. I love it. Yeah. Like at what

hillary: point if you like go to jail over 20 times, are you just like, we're just gonna keep you in here. You should just stay there. Yeah. You know what I mean? There's obviously an issue. Think about all the things they could have prevented if oh hundred percent if they were just locked up.

I agree.

brandon: oba. Yeah. Fucking OBA Junior. Well, over the years, Oba jumped around from different cities, dating various women, um, and overall having eight children with seven different women. Um, and he was obviously known as some kind of a player, um, often dating multiple women at once. Was he even, was he cute?

I mean, he just looked like a You're a typical dude in the eighties,

hillary: and he is from Ohio.

brandon: From Ohio, and his

hillary: family was also from Ohio. Yeah, I think so. What are the [00:52:00] odds? That's

brandon: interesting. Maybe that's why he was like, well, and I, I actually took that note out in the beginning, but when, um, he noticed the license plate, he did relate to them in the fact that he was from Ohio too.

Of course he did. Yeah. Um, so by the time he was 41 in the late eighties, um, OBA was in Tampa, uh, married to a woman named Deborah Whiteman. Um, had a daughter and he started his own aluminum business. He bought a house and a blue and white 21 foot bay liner boat.

Hmm.

brandon: Yeah, so from what I read He loved being on the open water It was a place for himself to be free alone and away from the pressures of life and a new baby I could get that.

Oh, right. Yeah. Yeah, like oh, there's a baby on land. I'm out like fuck it, right?

hillary: Responsibility. He's like, thanks get

brandon: me away from all of this. Um, The great part is that over realized this, um, opportunity it brought, um, to continue. Sometimes I read the things I write. I'm like this, I feel like it doesn't make sense.

Anyways, he realized it was a great opportunity, um, to continue [00:53:00] his, uh, promiscuous lifestyle. So, and he, uh, would lure women onto his boat and eventually try to sleep with them while they were on his boat. Using it as like a,

kevin: I think already the moral of the story for anyone is if somebody's trying to lure you onto their boat, just say no.

Like, use reputable tour companies. Yeah, you would be

hillary: surprised at how many things we interrupt on a boat. Uh uh. Yeah. Oh my god. Like, can you give examples? Can you give examples? Yeah, so, uh, this, this was here, actually. We had stopped, there was like a pontoon boat, like, anchored. And we're like, oh, like, let's do a quick boarding real quick.

So we go on board, and our whole purpose is just like, Check safety gear. Make sure you're good to go. Totally. This man's did not have pants on. Oh, he had a towel, but his wife was like, one, one minute. And I'm like, yo, for real. Like, come on, I'm, I'm like hanging off our boat like, oh my God. I'm like, are you good?

Like, yeah. Oh

kevin: my God.

hillary: Or like people that, like men where you're like, I'm pretty sure that's not your spouse. Oh yeah. Like we've interrupted some of that. They get real upset.

brandon: Oh,

kevin: well, yeah. Yeah.

hillary: But I'm also like, dude, [00:54:00] fuck off. You know, like, yeah. People suck. People

kevin: do suck. People suck. Let's, let's go get some, let's go get sexy on the water.

Right, yeah, Opa would not Like, I get

hillary: it, but like, not around other people. No. You know what I mean? But I

kevin: feel like that's a thing for people. It's like a fantasy to be like, Ooh, you know, it

hillary: makes me feel weird. I'm not trying to be in your bedroom. I'm

brandon: just doing my

kevin: job. Just

hillary: let me see your life jackets.

I'm gonna get the fuck out of here.

kevin: I just, that's all I need. I don't want to see all this other stuff. No, put your butt away. Yeah.

hillary: Yeah. Gross.

brandon: People are funny. Now we get to May 14th, um, 1989.

That's

hillary: my mom's

birthday.

hillary: Oh, Pam! Does Pam

kevin: still listen to the podcast?

hillary: Uh, she might listen to this one. Yeah, I'm gonna tell her to listen to this one.

Pam, I haven't

kevin: seen you since I was like It's

hillary: been a minute.

kevin: Like, I think I [00:55:00] was 23.

hillary: Yeah.

kevin: Oh my God. Wow.

hillary: Yeah, she'd love to see you though. I would love to. I

kevin: love her. And Sam, your sister. Yeah,

hillary: she, she's also a big fan of you guys. She listens to you religiously.

kevin: I always thought Sam looked like Celine Dion.

She does. I know she does. I love her. Yeah. She loves you guys. Yeah, she's

hillary: going to be so thrilled. I know. Yeah. Sissy. Shout out.

kevin: Shout out. Shout out. All those in Colorado. Hello. Colorado. Um, okay, Brandon. All right. So back to

brandon: May 14th, Um, when, um, Oba, um, met two women at a 7 Eleven in Madeira Beach, Florida. I really hope they got some slushies.

You know, I, I did not see any reports on that. Darn.

kevin: When'd

hillary: the slushie come out? Yeah.

kevin: Hopefully in 1980s, you know? Right. I don't know. Probably about

brandon: that time. I

kevin: feel like I've seen some shows that they had like slushies in the 1980s.

brandon: Oh yeah, for sure. I know. Anyway. Yeah. Okay. Um, so he ended up meeting two women named Judy Blair and Barbara.

Um, ma Matri, I, I'm so bad with names. [00:56:00] Anyways, um, uh, they were there in the area, um, on vacation from Canada. Oh, from Canata. Yeah. Canata. Love that. So in this meeting, um, OBA introduced himself as. Dave Posn Posno. Um, and told them that he owned an aluminum business in Bradenton. And a boat, uh, that he eventually, then again, invited them in invited them on a a trip.

Gosh, they invited him on the next morning. You're so cute. I know. I hate reading and it's all my notes. And I'm, as I read, I'm like, Oh, I didn't misspell a lot in here. I even misspelled his name a few times. It's literally three letters. You have OB and I have OB, OB and OBO. I just thought, so I'm hoping to interest, um, the both of them.

He was a little disappointed when only Judy accepted his offer and the next morning they got on this boat and took off. For Judy, this trip was pretty uneventful and Oba didn't really try anything with her. Um, however, some came to think that nothing [00:57:00] happened since he knew that Barbara would be expecting her back.

Um, so as they docked that day, Oba decided to offer another sunset trip with, um, them that evening, hoping to get a second chance. So that evening, um, so that evening came, and to his surprise, Barbara didn't show up. Um, and it was just the two of them again. Uh, this time, however, um, Oba didn't want to hold back.

So starting with getting a little frisky, Oba started to, uh, touch and hug Judy, um, and talking to her about how he wanted to have sex with her, all of which Judy politely declined, which only made Oba more mad, um, and he only Proceeded to take advantage of her. So she begged him not to, she even told him that she was a virgin, which only made him more excited, which is, yeah, when I read that, when I read that, I was like, yeah, you don't want to say that because it's going to be attracted to that.

If someone was

hillary: like trying to do that to me, I would be like, not the virgin thing, but I'd be like, I might have some, you might not want,

kevin: like,

hillary: I actually, I

kevin: would, I [00:58:00] would be like, I'll suck your dick and I'd bite it off. That's what I'd do. Yeah. Fuck you.

hillary: Yeah. Sorry. Mom's disgusting. Oh yeah.

kevin: Ooh. Um, but this is, I do not understand.

This is something I don't get. I, and uh, just in men, how being told that I'm a virgin would turn them on more. Well, it's just like them saying no. And it turns him on even more.

anna: They're predators. Yeah, exactly.

kevin: Because they're pedophiles. Like I don't get, I just, Like what?

brandon: Yeah.

kevin: Ugh. Yeah.

hillary: Yeah. It's gross. Yeah.

That's not it.

brandon: Yeah. And it was even quoted, um, later that he said, is sex worth losing your life over? To her to get her to do it. Yeah. No, predator indeed . Yeah.

Like, what

brandon: the fuck? Yeah. So then he proceeded to pin her down and sexually assault her. Um, and then after the assault he got up and headed back to shore.

Um, and there were some notes that said like his demeanor changed and he started throwing up off the boat and people were like, is it because he was ashamed of it or because the adrenaline of it [00:59:00] happening? Um, so he ended up getting up to shore, uh, where he had her jump out of the boat and swim to the beach as he.

Drove away to go to a different location. Bye, bitch. I'm out. Yeah.

hillary: I'd have jumped overboard before.

brandon: Right, right, right. I, I probably would've done the same. And so the next morning, Judy ended up calling the police and report in reporting the, uh, the assault. Um, luckily she was able to give the police a full account of what happened in what he looked like.

Uh, however, they were not able to collect any forensic evidence, um, because she was in the water for her and then she washed, uh, she took a shower before she went in. Which I probably would have done the same thing to be like, whatever. So So then two weeks later Oba meets Joan Rogers and her two daughters.

So this brings us back to the beginning of the story. How

hillary: old were her girls again? They

brandon: were Teenagers they were teenagers. I usually put their ages in here and I'm pretty sure if

kevin: I remember the story correctly I think they were like 12 12 13. Oh my god. Yeah, I'm pretty young. They were they

brandon: were young I think they might have been a little bit older, but they were I could take a quick look in a sec.

I thought they were under [01:00:00] 60, yeah. Yeah, so, um, so once Joan, Michelle, and Christy got to the boat, uh, the boat dock that evening, Oba was obviously thrilled, um, and took off quickly. So, once Oba felt like they were a good distance, um, into the bay, uh, he decided he was prepared to attack. So he, um, bound their wrists, and this is a little bit of trigger warning, but he bound their wrists, Behind their backs with yellow rope and put duct tape over their mouths before he sexually assaulted them in a lot of reports I saw said that people think that he only covered their mouths so that he could see like their the pain on their faces So after the assault he wrapped rope around their necks That had a 30 pound concrete block attached to the end of it.

No. Um, he left them naked from the waist down and he pushed each of them overboard one by one, still alive.

Yo, that just gave me goosebumps.

brandon: That's fucked. Right? Yeah. That's terrible. Like that's the, it's one thing to kill somebody, but to push them overboard. Well, cause they all drown. [01:01:00] Yes. And they all drown.

It's a quick thing. No, no, it's, it's, it's horrendous.

What a trashy ending.

kevin: Right. So. Was this the first time that he like went to killing though? We'll get there. Okay, great. I'm always jumping ahead. You always are.

brandon: Okay. Um, so because of the decomp, uh, decomposition process, um, in the warm waters of the Tampa Bay, cause the Tampa Bay gets really warm below.

Yep. The bodies didn't last underwater for too long because they started to fill with gas. Um, in three days later on June 4th, uh, the three bodies were discovered by the coast guard floating, floating in various different parts of Tampa Bay. So, um, however, when they, um, got the bodies, because they, it's hard to find a criminal in an office that's not like, you know, some kind of a serial killer so, um, I'm not going to tell you guys who my, some of my friends are, but again, you know, I'm not going to tell you guys who my car is, but if you guys want to know my car, you can check out my first chapter of my book and um, chemical [01:02:00] drugs, which I think I'm going to explain in a second.

days when the police investigated the motel. Um, they heard of the names of Joan, Michelle, and Christie. Finding the information on Joan's husband, they called him, um, and the police asked for the lady's dental records, which confirmed that it was the Rogers family. . So the police started their investigation into the murderer, uh, which started to, uh, to prove to be a little bit difficult because the ladies were in the water for so long.

It washed off a lot of the b biological evidence that could have been on the bodies, uh, whether that was hair, clothing, fibers, fingerprints, or even semen. Um, I love how you spelled semen as like I, IC as in Semens, CAN. Yeah, you're welcome, , and I love that you just look at my notes. I misspelled, so I'm literally just following it.

I dunno why. Yeah, you always do. I always see your eyes on it. So that was, um, until, uh, lead detective Jim Kappel, um, saw a monthly bulletin from the Florida Department of Law Enforcement where he learned of a story of a woman who was assaulted on a boat in Madeira Beach. So looking into the [01:03:00] attacker, Dave Pozno, Um, he felt like he came to a dead end when he couldn't find any records of that name in the Tampa Bay area.

So taking a trip to Canada to meet with Judy and Barbara, Detective Capel questioned the two and asked, um, and he was asking for a more complete overview of what happened, including a description of the attacker, uh, to create a composite sketch. So once it can spot the, once the sketch was, um, was hit in the media in November, it quickly became a big, uh, it became a pretty big news story.

Uh, one that Oba wanted to avoid at all costs. So packing up, he jetted right out of Tampa, back up to Cincinnati. And not even telling his wife that he was leaving. He just like, he just left. Yeah.

hillary: Oh, and his child.

brandon: Yeah.

hillary: What a piece of trash.

brandon: Well, speaking of his children, uh, when he got to Ohio, he ended up meeting with one of his daughters, um, Crystal and her husband, Rick Mays, uh, who was in the area, and in this meeting, Oba decided to confess to them that the police were [01:04:00] after him for assault and murder.

Oh, great. Hold on.

hillary: Yeah, please. Yeah, right.

brandon: Yeah, I'm thinking, like, who you are. I'd be like So, uh, Crystal quickly called Oba's current wife, Debra, who also started having some suspicions about Oba after noticing that the composite's bench looked awfully familiar. Um, however, Some reason, um, Oba decided to go back to Florida, um, right after Thanksgiving.

Um, and all of Debra's suspicions went away after Oba let her know that he had no part in any of it. So she just believed him. Okay. From my research, yeah. So from here, Oba knew, uh, that he had to leave the state of Florida for good. Um, leaving the majority of their belongings in their Tampa home, they got in the car and started driving to California.

Um, however, it was very short lived, um, and nobody quite knows how long or how far they got, um, but eventually they ended up making their way back to Tampa. And I didn't really see much about, like, what happened in that time or why. Um, but from here, Oba would eventually land a [01:05:00] job from May to September in 1991 as an informant for the U.

S. Customs and Tampa Police Departments. Yeah, so he would go out and he would help them find murderers and solve crimes and all that shit. However by 1992 Oba once again decided to leave the Tampa area and ended up in Port Orange, Florida, which is on the opposite coast by Daytona Um, so, in this time, the detectives didn't stop their investigation, um, eventually searching Joan Rogers car for more evidence, um, and in this search, they found a brochure, uh, for Clearwater Beach that had handwritten directions to the motel the family was staying at.

Um, it also included, uh, the fingerprints of Joan and a palm print that did not match anyone, um, in the family. So from here, the police decided to analyze the handwriting and came to the conclusion that it was not written by any of the ladies that were killed that day, and it must have been from the killer.

So with this information, the [01:06:00] police decided to do something that I find to Especially because we were in advertising and marketing, uh, pretty interesting. Um, so since the T's and the Y's in the, the letter were written a very unique way, like I want to say the, if a T was in the middle of a sentence, he put it, he made it a capital T.

Um, in the Y, there was like four different ways he would write the letter Y. Um, so, So, um, they thought, why not get the handwriting, um, sent out to the masses to see if anyone could recognize the handwriting. Um, so they acquired billboards throughout Tampa Bay that they created signs that stated who wrote these directions.

You may know who killed the Rogers family. 25, 000 reward. They

put this on a billboard? On billboards,

brandon: yes. With a picture of the handwriting symbol, which I have in here to me is a genius way to get the message out, especially because there was no social media. There was no inter, like there was internet, but there wasn't, it wasn't what it is today.

Like the easiest way for them to get out to a large audience was billboard. And if you [01:07:00] Google it, I'll add it into the highway. Oh, each media. Yeah, that's great. And I'll add it into the creative for the episode, but there was multiple different billboards that it was on the billboards around Tampa Bay have been

kevin: here since then.

So, I mean, there's newer digital ones, but like the older ones have been here for a while, a long time.

brandon: Yeah. In this like marketing strategy, they did, um, it ended up working. So in May of 1992, a woman who recognized the same handwriting from a contractor she hired, Um, noticed that they had the same unique handwriting as the billboard.

Um, so that contractor ended up being Oba Chandler. So on September 24th, 1992, um, Oba was arrested at a gas station near his home in Volusia County, Florida. Um, unfortunately for detectives, Oba had sold his boat three months after the murder, so they weren't able to search it for more evidence. However, um, they had a match in the palm print on the Clearwater brochure.

And Oba was identified as the rapist who attacked Judy Blair when she was shown [01:08:00] a photo of him, um, And by November 10th, Oba was indicted by a Pinellas County grand jury for three counts of first degree murder. Good. Yeah. The trial state, uh, started on September 19th, 1994. And from the beginning, Oba denied all allegations, stating that he helped them with the directions, but he never saw them again until, um, he saw them on the news.

Mm hmm. What a bitch. Right. However, there was many who testified to prove him wrong, and a few was, uh, Judy, Um, who told, um, told the courts her interactions that day, that, um, how he brought her on the boat and what happened and, um, everything that happened to her. And then a co worker, uh, Rollins Cooper, uh, told the courts that Oba bragged to him, Ooh, I just spit all over this mic.

That's gross. You know, right? And nobody would have known that but me, so you're welcome. I'm gonna just pretend it didn't happen. Anyways, um, so he told the courts that, um, Um, Oba bragged to him, bragged to him about a date he had with three women the day [01:09:00] after the murder. Um, and then Crystal, his daughter, told the courts, um, her account of when he came to her home and admitted to the police, admitted that the police were after him for the killings and the Wow.

Yeah.

hillary: Back up. He had dates with three women. That was a woman and two children. Yes, exactly. So Exactly.

brandon: Gross. After the court finished, it was pretty evident to the jury that Oba was guilty of the murder. Uh huh. Um, and on September 29th, 1994, he was found guilty on all three counts of first degree murder and all 12 jurors voted that Oba be sentenced to death.

kevin: And you had said earlier about something about his daughter, right? His daughter testified against him? Against him,

brandon: yeah.

kevin: Well, to

brandon: say

kevin: that

brandon: she, um, Like he confessed to her? This is what he said to me when he came to see us. Um, so, um, one juror even stated, um, he scared some of the jurors when he would sit there and stare at you and have that stupid grin on his face.

He would make your skin crawl,

which

brandon: I thought was interesting. So throughout the rest of [01:10:00] Oba's time, he would continue to deny the murders. He would appeal the death sentence repeatedly all of which did not go through and on November 15th 2012 Oba was served his final meal of two salami sandwiches on white bread with mustard and a cup of coffee and Right Disgusting and he wrote down his last statement because he didn't want to say it out loud which said you're killing an innocent man today And at 4 0 8 p.

m. right? So 4 0 8 p. m. Oba was executed by lethal injection at the Florida State Prison of Railford, Florida. And all I gotta say is, lethal injunction.

kevin: Injunction?

Injunction, injunction.

kevin: What's your function? Um, God. No, but that, like that compared to tying people. Yeah. They should have just tossed them over

hillary: the side.

Eye for an eye.

kevin: I don't know. That's like Which we had a whole, I think, I feel like we had a whole conversation about like the debate of like, um, capital punishment. Right. Yeah. I think [01:11:00] in general,

hillary: here, Oh, but just take a long walk up a short pier, you know, get out of here. We don't need you. Yeah. Yeah.

Interesting.

kevin: Interesting. Interesting.

hillary: What's rude is he only had three murders, like not like a history of murder. But I wonder,

kevin: I mean, that was the eighties, like how many, Or unaccounted for like how many so I have an

brandon: interesting fact

hillary: do tell right

brandon: so many believe that Oba murdered before Including a woman named and I'm gonna do so bad at this.

Um, I've I've Elise I've Elise Barrows. Oh, I don't I'm so bad with names or guess so bad. Yeah, so So she had a similar death to the Rogers family in Coral Springs, Florida. Um, and at the time the DNA samples that were taken, um, the technology wasn't that great. Um, and so they couldn't really tell who, what happened and they couldn't identify, um, who it was, but eventually when the tech got better, they were able to, [01:12:00] um, retest the DNA.

I mean, they found it a positive match to Oba. So. There's chances that he didn't go from zero to a hundred. So chances he probably was doing. Yeah. Yeah. Well, um, and to the, to the degree where the Florida cold case detectives have been advised that if they're investigating any case that happened within that time period, uh, that they should look into where Oba was living at the time because chances it could be him.

kevin: He's like a fucking serial killer. Technically he is because that's three. Yeah. He killed three. Yeah. Yeah. Um, wasn't, wasn't it a mom, a daughter and her friend? Yeah. No, it was a mom and two daughters. Oh, I'm also, I'm confusing it with some murders that were California in the mountains when it was a mom, a daughter and a friend.

Yeah.

brandon: Um, and then the only, the last fact I have was at first the police thought it could have been their father. How? They thought it was weird that the ladies were supposed to be home three days before he called the police that they were missing. Um, uh, the detectives also felt like he was really cold about it all.

Uh, like he wasn't very [01:13:00] emotional when they told him that they were dead. His response was that he didn't have time to be emotional. that he had a farm to run.

Yeah.

brandon: Yeah. He said, he said he didn't farm his life. Yeah. He said he did what he had to do to function and not to worry about anything else.

However, he had an alibi because he didn't like to cook. So there was a number of people who saw him at a couple of different restaurants throughout that day. I mean think about that though because

kevin: if he had not done that then his alibi would be shit and they probably would have looked into it. Yeah.

That is so interesting. Yeah.

anna: It's interesting that he denied. that he said he was innocent until the end. Cause I feel like a lot of the times with the serial killers, they're like, once they get to the end of it, they're like proud of it.

kevin: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's really, really interesting.

hillary: Also let's talk about the last meal,

kevin: right?

I'm not

hillary: blowing my last meal and salami sandwiches. No

kevin: prison

hillary: salami

kevin: too. No,

hillary: [01:14:00] no. And coffee. Yeah.

kevin: That is, that one's really interesting. Yeah. Yeah. I do remember hearing about this one. Um, I think it was a day, it must've been a dateline or a 20. There was a forensic files on it. Was it a forensic file? I'm sure there was a dateline.

There was a few that

brandon: came out after this just because it's a, such a, it's a very, it's a more well known case than we typically do.

kevin: Yeah. Forensic files, man. That, I, that started when I met you. I think I watched it then.

We just like murder. It's just fascinating.

kevin: It is, which is awful. But yeah, I mean, That's, that was an interesting story.

Both murders at sea. Yeah.

hillary: Yeah. There's a lot of murder. And if there's not murder at sea, there's a lot of murder that goes into the sea. Cause they're like, yeah,

kevin: let's just dump it here. There was a, there was something I think it was like two years ago, the body that was found in the, in Tampa Bay that was floating.

hillary: There was a girl that was found. Oh, maybe that was like St. Pete's AOR.

kevin: How [01:15:00] long ago?

hillary: Within the last year since I've been here. Oh, and they like found her in like a, like a bag. Oh my God. Yeah. They found like, and I, and I, I do not know all the facts of this. I just know that what I heard on the radio and it was that a girl, a girl's body, I don't know how old, was found in a duffel bag or some sort of bag.

kevin: Which she didn't put herself in. Floating

hillary: out in the, uh,

kevin: out

hillary: somewhere around St. Petersburg.

kevin: It's interesting that people dump a lot of bodies in. the, just in the ocean in general. Yeah. Cause like how far, how, how far can you conceivably go out in the water on a normal boat?

hillary: I mean, it depends on how big it is, you know, but like fuel range or if you have a sailing boat or whatever, if you're on a sailboat, you can go wherever the wind will take you.

It's just like, and it's easy to be undetected on the water, especially if you're kind of like a loner and like bodies, you know, um, [01:16:00] You can get rid of them. Like, I'm not trying to be all weird, but like, they do bloat, but there are things that people do to them to make them not bloat, you know, or that if they do the ass.

goes away, you know, like

kevin: disperses. No, you poke holes in it. Oh my God. That's just, we are not here to advise people. No, no, no, no, no. But I'm just saying like, if you think about it,

hillary: right. And then you have things that can eat, um, and evidence just disappears. I feel

kevin: like that is probably likely in general, right?

Like a lot of sea, I'm sure aquatic life would eat. Oh yeah. I would think. Yeah. Yeah.

hillary: I've seen things. Get eaten very quickly by sea life in a very short amount of time where you're like, oh my god. What's

kevin: the sea life? Is it like sharks?

hillary: Crabs, fish, sharks. Oh,

kevin: interesting.

hillary: You would be surprised at like all those little fish.

kevin: Yeah. Yeah.

hillary: So,

kevin: Oh my God. So did you

anna: guys see that video of the kid who was like on a [01:17:00] graduation boat or something?

kevin: And they, and they dared him to jump in.

anna: They dared him to jump in and he jumped in it. He was never seen again. And it was like in New Orleans water. Yeah. So,

kevin: okay. So Hillary Coast Guard, if somebody were to jump off of a cruise ship like that.

So in that video you could see that there was, I think that you could see there was something in the water. Yeah. But even, like, I've seen people throw something from a big ship like that into the water and immediately all of a sudden there's a whole bunch of shit eating it. So if this, in this case with this guy jumping off of the, like, what, what an idiot, um, jumped off of the, this cruise ship into the water.

And there was clearly something in the water with him. He was just gone.

hillary: Well, I mean the odds of things just like being there, I feel like are pretty slim. Right. So like, It's just like you, like, if you just assume that, like, if you jump in the water just for funsies, that something's going to immediately eat you.

I do feel that way. [01:18:00] Realize is like when boats are moving and like you go under alongside a hole, there is, there's water moving and things under there. So he could have landed weird. He could have choked. He could have done, I don't know.

kevin: And do you That was, that was interesting, but, but you can get sucked underneath on a big cruise ship, right?

Like if you get in the water, you can get sucked underneath the hole, right? And then like, go through the propeller.

brandon: That is terrifying. I mean, all of it is terrifying. Yeah.

hillary: Listen, for anyone that's listening, if you're on a boat, stay on it. Okay. Stay on it. Like do not jump. Don't. Don't do it. And if you ever think you can swim to land, don't do that either.

Cause it's always like way farther than you think and you will tire out and probably die and drown before you get there. So,

kevin: wow. So this comes from directly from someone who does this every day. Yeah. So stay on the goddamn. Yeah. If you flip

hillary: a boat, get on the whole, stay with it, stay together. Cause you're more [01:19:00] well one, you're not in the water.

So hypothermia.

kevin: Oh yeah. And then visibility. What if the boat goes down? Like, what if it, yeah. If it fills and it's

hillary: gone, then stay with your people. It's a lot easier to find a group of people than it is to find one. Yeah,

kevin: that's true. Yeah. That is that the, the ocean freaks me out so much. And that's why I'm

brandon: drowning is like the, I feel like is one of the worst ways to die.

Yeah. You know, I

anna: hate the idea of like not knowing what's

It's disgusting to me. It literally gives me the heebie jeebies. It's

kevin: terrifying. Like dark. I can't, there was a, I, there, okay. Outside of Roswell, there is the bottomless lakes. I don't know if you've ever gone there. I don't know. But like, it's like a super deep. Um, and I remember swimming in that and just thinking there are no, I didn't like, where does this go?

I don't know. Yeah. I don't like any of it like ever. But I used to

anna: as a [01:20:00] kid swim in a lake like we would do like inner tubing on this lake That was like you couldn't see anything Like you couldn't even see your hands. It was so murky and As a child it was like fine. But once I started getting older, I was like, you know, what's under me?

Like I don't care if this isn't like super deep. It's still like there could be dead bodies. There could be like I don't know. I just can't but

kevin: yeah, I just let's like Naya Rivera Oh my God, I know, I was so sad about that. Yeah, like that, even just the thought of, I don't know. It takes nothing for you to drown.

Like, if you

hillary: choke, your body's like, hold up, and you're done. Like, you're done breathing.

kevin: Yeah, see, and that, yeah, that just.

hillary: It's crazy.

kevin: Oh my God, or you're trying to hold your breath, but your body forces you to breathe in. We had

hillary: um, when was this, two or three weeks, three weeks ago? A 16 year old from Canada was down here for a swim.

Swim camp, uh, down off, uh, like Clearwater beach, [01:21:00] like Indian rocks over there on my side and drown. So we were like looking for his body at a swim camp

kevin: like that

hillary: during practice.

anna: Yeah. That's

hillary: awful. Yeah. It was not

kevin: great. I just, yeah. Water. So like just wear your

hillary: life jackets. Like if you have kids in the water, like Watch him, put him on a leash, I don't know.

Stresses me out. I'm on a slim leash. Stresses me out.

kevin: No, that's, I mean, I'm sure the shit that you do, okay. When I was in high school, um, and I, you probably took the same thing because we were in the same district. Um, our health class had to go to CSU, I think is where we went. Um, and it was all about alcohol and drugs and like looking at the impact, the morgue.

Yes. We did

hillary: it at uh, McKee Hospital in Lublin. That's where we went. Okay. You guys actually went to the morgue? That, to this day, fucked me up. Me

kevin: too! Like, I was like, we're fragile, we can die. And I remember not drinking specifically because of one thing that I saw. And it was that picture of the guy who had flown off the boat and got his head got sliced in half by the [01:22:00] propeller.

Do you remember that?

hillary: No. But I remember the guy that didn't have a face because he went through the windshield and smashed it on the winch. Oh my gosh.

kevin: Yes. But it was, it was a horrifying. We were in Colorado. Yeah,

hillary: we were, uh, it was high school. I was like 16.

kevin: Okay. Maybe it was my, our sophomore year. Maybe cause we were, you were in Thompson.

So we were in the same district. Yeah. They didn't do that in Connecticut. Ooh, it was, it messed me up though.

hillary: I was, even now I'm like, no, I think about all the time. It's probably why I'm weird about death.

kevin: I'm probably the same. I think about death

hillary: a

kevin: lot. Oh God. Yeah. Like in what way? Uh, just like how

hillary: fast it can happen, how easily it can happen.

It's not like how fragile we are. It's not like you're thinking

brandon: about death of others. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. More so

hillary: like, just. I don't know. It's crazy to me. I feel like as I get older I think about it more too. We see so many things that like, you're just like, it's like okay and then it's not in like a split second.

It's like, oh my

anna: god. Every time I like, find out a new way that you could die, that I've [01:23:00] never thought about before, like, I'm like, You know, if you eat leftover rice,

brandon: get like

anna: this certain bacteria and just die. I'm like, every time I think about things like that, I'm like, Oh yeah, we could just

hillary: be

anna: out. I

hillary: haven't had leftover rice in months because of that shit.

You know, but my whole life, think about like your whole young adult life. You've been

eating it

hillary: cold, eating it microwaved again, like days later.

brandon: I'm not, I'm not a leftovers person. It is also crazy to think like, The reason we know things are bad for you and that can kill you now if there's something poisonous is because somebody at one point did like how lucky are we at a point where we could be living and not have to worry about like, Oh, is this going to kill me right this second?

kevin: I mean, you know what's interesting is that I, there, there's several things, shootings, there's, I mean just all of it. Even when in New York, I am very aware of my surroundings at all times. Like just if things get funky and I'm down in the subway, I will move. Okay. I will get out of a car [01:24:00] and get into another.

Like I'm pretty, I'm like hyper aware. You have to pay attention. Yeah. So people that

hillary: are like balls deep in their phones, I'm like, look around, look around and see who's around you. Right. It could, it, I don't know. I, like I said, I don't trust anybody. I assume everybody's up to some shady shit. Well, most people are.

kevin: Yeah. Um, I think that's fair, but no, I'm the, I'm the same way looking for exits when you are anywhere that you are just cause you just do not know. Yeah. I mean pride happened recently and we walked into Bradley's and I'm like, I know exactly where the exits are. Yeah,

hillary: I just also like I don't really like going out in big crowds anymore Because people get even movies like movie theaters make me uncomfortable And i'm just like there's also been a lot

kevin: of mass shootings in the state of colorado.

Yeah, it

hillary: doesn't help

kevin: that I feel like any sort of like big thing is like I don't know. Well, you gotta remember we grew up. I mean columbine happened when I was in eighth grade

hillary: Six or seven. Yeah,

kevin: so like I You I remember that. We went to the memorial. We went all of it like the next day. So where [01:25:00] you could see the windows blown out of the school and blood running down the building like it's fucked up.

But then

kevin: even the Aurora theater shooting happened in Colorado too. Craziness. But yeah, no, it's so quick that it's just like done.

hillary: Yeah.

kevin: Yeah.

hillary: So just like, just be careful. Wear your life jackets. Don't get on boats with strangers. Like

kevin: never get on a boat with a stranger. No, don't ever get on a boat with a stranger.

Yeah. Don't get into a car with a stranger. No, and don't feel bad to say no. I think saying no is such a powerful thing. Yeah, I'm good, thanks. With no explanation either. No. No. No, thank you. Why? Just no.

hillary: Yeah, people been drugging people on boats. Oh my god. Yeah.

kevin: What?

hillary: Yeah. It's crazy out there.

kevin: I wouldn't even drug a person not on a boat.

Think about how

hillary: isolated all of it is. You can literally just get on a boat and you can be miles away from, no one's going to hear you. Yeah, no

kevin: I agree. International waters. I can't.

hillary: Yeah, nighttime is a little nighttime on the water. It's like it ha there is like such a peacefulness [01:26:00] to it, but also a very sketchiness to it.

Yes. Yeah. Like the nights when like the moon's out and you can see peaceful, calm, gorgeous. When it's not, when it's not, you're like, it is black as shit out here. Like I don't

kevin: see that is, it's so,

brandon: because you can't see anywhere, you can't see up down. Could you, could you imagine

kevin: being alone in the water? No, no, just no.

Like I would die of a heart attack because I would be so scared that I'd just be like done. Yeah. Nighttime.

hillary: What is it? Was that movie open water with a couple that gets left behind?

kevin: Yeah. Which is based on a true story.

hillary: Yeah.

kevin: That's terrifying. Which did they find them or no? I don't think they ever found that.

Yeah. Oh my God.

hillary: I think they got,

kevin: got, they got, got,

hillary: but then

kevin: something got them. No, I think they were in shark infested waters, you know, which is. Also terrifying if, if that was the case. Um, for sharks, I don't know much about sharks, but in general, do they go after humans in a frenzy? Like,

I don't know.

kevin: They make it seem like, okay.

I just, I don't know. See, I hate all of this . [01:27:00] I'm not,

yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I

kevin: like

anna: mountains, isn't it? Like, I can't remember if it was sharks or alligators or crocodiles. Still don't know the difference between alligators and crocodiles, but that thing of like, if you're bleeding at all, they'll come to you immediately.

Is that

hillary: sharks?

anna: Uh,

hillary: I don't know. I feel like that's like any sort of like carnivorous water creature. But if I had to take my chances with a shark or a gator, Um, give me the shark.

kevin: Uh, see, I heard the gators

hillary: are like, no, thank you. No, I think you'll just grab them on and just start spinning your ass. Yeah.

We're like, they're like, Oh, sharks are curious. Well, you know, but like alligators, I think they just want to kill you. Yeah. Like, yeah, none of it. I don't like, I love the water, but I don't like being in the water.

kevin: Yeah. I'm not a water person. I don't fucking hate the water. Just too much stuff.

hillary: Too many things.

It's

kevin: like people that are like, you want to go to the beach? And I'm like, no, I don't. I don't. I don't go lay on a beach. Like, I just, I'm not, I don't want to swim where people [01:28:00] are peeing around me. Like, I'm just not into it. I'm not into it. I'm like, take me to the mountains. I'm great there. Yeah, but. Yeah,

hillary: I don't mind the beach, but.

The beach is a process. It's like, let's drive to the beach. Let's find parking at the beach. Let's battle every other asshole out here on the beach. Like

kevin: it's also the bath. The bathroom situation is number one for me because that's why everybody pees in the water and I hate it and I don't, I can't actually physically pee in water.

Like, I cannot do it . I do not know why. If

hillary: you were shipwrecked, I bet you would. I'm,

kevin: I'm sure you'll figure it out. I'm sure at some point it would just like come out if you had diarrhea in the bottom of the, the dinghy.

hillary: You're getting voted off all . We're eating you first. Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. I mean, I'm pretty meaty.

Also, if we were on a boat, I would not eat. I either one of you, I would not know either. I'll just let the, let the elements take me. I'm like, we're just gonna burn. You can do what you run with me afterwards, but I'm not gonna do, I

kevin: wouldn't do that either. No, I can't. I mean, obviously I've never been in that position, but I could not fathom.

No.

hillary: If somebody, like, did all the work for me, right, and I'm not talking about eating raw human, if they were, [01:29:00] like, right at the plane crash situation, if someone was like, hey, I barbecued this, I found it, I'd be like,

kevin: All right.

hillary: Okay.

kevin: I'm only, I don't want to know about it. And

hillary: I'm like that with most foods.

Like, don't tell me what it is, but I'll try it.

kevin: That like actually just in the meat grinding and all this kind of shit process that all of us have probably eaten some sort of human.

anna: Oh my god, what? Yes, yeah. People lose a digit.

kevin: People lose fingers and shit, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know, I know.

anna: Don't say that to me.

kevin: Those are the reasons why I tried to be a veg well, vegan at one point and then ended up crying mental breakdown. Crying in front of a hot dog stand. New York City, yeah, Brooklyn. Yep. We tried it for a month and we're very

hillary: not good. Yeah, I mean I'll try I would probably try anything once just don't tell me what it is

brandon: I'm not that way.

I can't do it Brandon I guess I'd never want to be in a place where I have to find that out

hillary: Yeah, or like make that decision. Yeah, like yeah, and like you can go a very very [01:30:00] long time without eating

brandon: So like I'm good. Yeah, it's

hillary: the water part

kevin: Yeah,

hillary: so yeah, it's just in blood

kevin: doesn't sound as good as just water Okay, yeah, with my story where they're like, they've moistened their back.

hillary: No, no, we had, uh, we caught this big fish one time. Did I show you the picture of that fish we caught? You did, yeah. Yeah, so that fish, they had, they had the heart out. And one of the, one of the engineers on the boat, he was like, try a piece. And no, I, I did and it was like so bloody that like I couldn't, like, I like gagged, I swallowed it, but I was like, it was the blood for me.

And I was like, it

kevin: was blood for, because it tastes like metal. It's like mey. It was very

hillary: irony.

brandon: Yeah. Oh God. But it

hillary: was like also the warmth that like bothered me. The

brandon: warmth is

hillary: and the thickness. It was a lot. And I was like, my, and he loved it. That was like his thing. Oh my God. He was, he was like from an island originally somewhere.

So that was like his thing. Yeah. Not mine.

kevin: No,

hillary: not mine. But, um,

kevin: I am not adventurous. I can barely [01:31:00] eat real meat. No, all meats real, but I can barely eat. Well, you can't even touch raw chicken. Oh my God. Yeah. I can't. I mean, I'll do it if I have to. Like when I was in New York by myself, I know I probably grilled some chicken broth, but, uh, I can't like, Oh my God, touching it.

And then like knowing that, There's even times where I'm like, Brandon, did you wash your hands?

hillary: Yeah. Now I get weird about raw meat too. Yeah. Like rinse it,

kevin: wash it. Yeah. Oh God.

hillary: What would your last meal in prison be?

kevin: That is a great, that is a really good question. I've never thought of myself in prison, which is probably good.

Oh God.

hillary: Anna, what would yours be?

anna: I don't know. Maybe like, All of my favorite foods don't make any sense together. So like, I would want like cheese fries with like bacon and whatever, but I would also want like ceviche. So I don't know how to make like a meal. So you want a tapas spread? Yeah,

hillary: how accommodating do you think they'd be?

Be like, I want some cheese fries, [01:32:00] but like also like a bowl of ceviche. Yeah. And like a

kevin: really good New York prime. Yeah, like something.

hillary: Some like barbecued chicken, like how much are they willing to actually give you asparagus? You know, I am not wasting my last meal on fucking asparagus. As . I love asus. I like asparagus, but it is not last meal.

Vegetable quality. I have

kevin: a salad.

hillary: I, I'll tell you right. The only vegetable that I would eat last meal would be like potatoes in some form. .

kevin: Sure. Like, like a potatoes and onion and like pepper, something. I don't know. But like fried form, mashed form. Yeah. I would want, I'd probably want like. I would definitely have a Whatchamacallit.

Oh my god, they're so good. Everyone knows what those are. What the fuck does that mean? Oh my god. It's a chocolate bar that Kevin didn't

brandon: know about either. Okay.

kevin: Anna, do you Whatchamacallit is?

anna: No.

kevin: Oh my god. It's a very underrated

brandon: chocolate bar. Can you

kevin: tell? So you've got to tell us, because I don't think any of us

brandon: grew up with that.

No, and I mean, I don't know if I necessarily grew up with it, but it was in the vending machines at high [01:33:00] school, and I would get it, and it's like this like, Chocolate bar. It's like a wafer with like peanut in it and stuff. It's it's it's delicious I don't even

kevin: know how to explain it. It's like It's like I mean, there's no cat mixed It's like a KitKat bar mixed with like crunch mixed with like a little bit of a Reese's flavor.

Yeah, I don't it's so They're so good But I would have that as an option. It's an option as a dessert and then I would have ice cream I would definitely have ice cream Yeah savory and sweet, but I would probably order. I'd be like, can you get me red farm? The restaurant's located on the Upper West side.

Yeah. Right away, sir. We'll hold that. We'll go ahead. Can you please send that to me? Thank you. Our

hillary: jail attendants out to go get that for you right away.

kevin: That would be my last meal. I think. Yeah. But that's a really good question. Brandon, what was yours?

brandon: I don't know. I said definitely ice cream and maybe like, Some sort of like pasta dish, never ending pasta dish from Olive Garden.

[01:34:00] Like, no, no, no. When

hillary: I'm done, then you can take me.

brandon: He found a loophole.

hillary: This man's been eating pasta for six days straight. There's a vomit everywhere, but he won't stop.

kevin: Jesus. That's interesting. Okay. Hillary, what do I know? What would

hillary: be worse? Hmm. I don't know. I think it might have to have like a gigantic bowl of like FA or something.

Mm-Hmm. That's like my go-to, yeah. Like feel good meal to run, about to die. I might as well just,

kevin: yeah. Might as well just gimme

hillary: a trough. I'll marinate in it, you know? I don't know. Urinate in

kevin: it.

hillary: I don't

kevin: know. I would maybe, do you know? Okay. You would

brandon: do a chicken sandwich from chilies?

kevin: Not, or just a chicken

brandon: sandwich?

kevin: Depends on where or a pizza. Oh my god. I love pizza so much. Yeah. Pizza Quiznos. Chris and I would probably have our old sandwiches. The Angus

hillary: steak with

kevin: the sauce. I used to get something and that sauce, that red sauce. It's

hillary: the black Angus mushroom steak sandwich or whatever.

kevin: I think we always ordered the same shit.

We [01:35:00] did because

hillary: we have amazing palates.

kevin: Amazing palates. Oh yeah, that sauce,

hillary: that was kind of spicy with like the onion and the mushroom in it. Oh my god.

kevin: And there was no Quiznos. have Quiznos in Lubbock?

anna: Yeah, we did. Okay. I don't remember if I, I think I had it like once. It was around for like a year.

kevin: The OG Quiznos is in downtown Denver.

Um, really? Yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah. On um, on the 13th. Yeah. Yeah. That

hillary: would probably be my more realistic last meal would be just the fattest sandwich with like an entire bag of chips. Yeah. This

kevin: water. Like

brandon: a family

kevin: pack?

hillary: Yeah. Like, yeah, like, like Costco size, bag of chips. They're like, well, whatever. It doesn't matter.

kevin: You know what, I probably count calories don't

hillary: count in prison.

kevin: No. Or when you're dying. Um, not on death row. Yeah. Nope. Guess not. But I would have a bag of salt and vinegar chips. Oh yes, bitch. And milk chocolate. Chocolate bar at the same time. Okay. It's just a weird like I get it No, I used to like eat that at work salty vinegary sweet.

I [01:36:00] do like this. Oh my god Love it a lot. Anyway Well, this was a fun. This was thank you for having me Miss you so much.

anna: I know I miss you guys. We

kevin: get to see you in a couple weeks, which is really exciting

anna: Yeah, and

kevin: we'll be back in New York City for the summer. So we'll be back Please remember to rate and review the podcast and subscribe and follow us and that's all that's all